What is it really like?

Get some first-hand perspective on the experience that our Professional Year program delivers and how the training and internship elements work together to not only develop your technical and soft skills, but also your confidence as a recent graduate!

In today’s episode, we catch up with Samriddha (Sam) Adhikari, one of our graduates from the Performance Education Professional Year program in Sydney.

Sam secured a role as Junior Software Analysts through his internship at Gradability and we asked Sam:

• what his key takeaways from the Professional Year program were, 
• what he did to secure his role, 
• and what advice he has for anyone wishing to pursue a Professional Year program. 

While PY students may be eligible for 5 points under the skilled migration program to pursue permanent residency in Australia, there are heaps of benefits that Sam got out of the program which can’t be measured in points. 

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Tune in again next week, for a new episode of The Employability Podcast, brought to you by Gradability.

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Here is the full transcript for this episode:

00:00 David: You’re listening to the Employability podcast where graduation meets employment. During this series, we uncover the good, the bad, and the ugly in terms of being more employable and ultimately getting hired. Hard truths, no bullshit, no filters, just the information you really need to kickstart your career. Presented by Gradability.

In today’s episode, we catch up with Samriddha or Sam Adhikari, a graduate from Performance Education’s Professional Year program in Sydney. Sam secured a role of Junior Software Analyst through his internship at Gradability and we asked Sam what his key takeaways from the PY program were, what he did to secure his role, and what advice he has for anyone wishing to pursue a Professional Year program.

So Sam, you’ve just started working with us full time, which is fantastic. What I’d like is if you could just tell our listeners a little bit about your journey, about how you got employed by Gradability, how you came to us, what you did, etc.

01:09 Sam: So in order to answer this, like, I’d need to take all of you two years back. So two years ago I like recently finished my Masters in IT from Charleston University and after that it was a pretty stressful situation because the COVID was already going on and I had to finish my last semester online and then that was really hectic in itself.

I really had to get my career started. And then some friend recommended PY for me and then I looked around, I reached out to a few agents as well and all of them, they recommended Performance Education. So then I reached out to Performance Education as well and then they said they got a slot open.

01:47 I can’t really remember the intake, but it was around say March or April intake that I had myself enrolled into.

01:54 David: And this is last year?

01:55 Sam: That was around 2021. So once I got enrolled into that intake and then the classes were like online because it was already in the middle of the pandemic. And then I had interactions with so many tutors and so many students even in the online Zoom meeting.

So, it was really an opportunity for me to go around and see what the industry was going on about because people had different ideas and all of them gave me different opinions, so I just had to figure my way from there on. It was a pretty good experience, but yeah, going along with it was pretty fruitful and it was pretty fun.

02:31 David: It’s fruitful, you found it and useful.

02:34 Sam: And then I made some friends, I met few mentors online. They were guiding me through it and once PE had ended, I had secured an internship with Gradability. So, it was like working with PE but on a bigger level. And the systems that I used were the same that we had been accustomed to while studying PE and it was a smooth transition for me in comparison to other people. It was a good experience. Fast forwarded, I’m working with PE and Gradability, and I’m liking it.

03:03 David: Excellent. So just for anyone listening in, what Sam is talking about, Performance Education, that’s our brand that we trade with the Professional Year Program. And Gradability is the company name, so he’s now working for Gradability, which Performance Education is part of.

Sam, tell me, that’s quite a journey for you, right? So did you always want to work in IT? Was that always your goal?

03:24 Sam: Yes, previously, like when I was back in Nepal as well, I studied IT, I finished my bachelors in IT, and then I worked six, seven months for IT. And then I had the Epiphany to go and finish my Masters abroad, and then I targeted Australia. I came to Australia, and IT has always been my career goal, to get into IT.

I have been shifting my specialization with the years to come because you get to know that some field interests you more than other fields. It might differ between people and persons. But for me, previously, I was engaged in programming and web development, but now it’s more business analysis and systems analysis. So it just depends upon every person to person. But for me, IT was always one of my career choices.

04:08 David: And how did you find the transition from studying and then moving into work? Did you find that easy? How did you manage that I suppose?

04:13 Sam: It’s pretty hard when you look back at it because transitioning from studies, you just had to study and working is a whole lot of elements are there and then you got to be prepared. You gotta get up, you got to get ready, you got to be presentable, you got to finish up.

There’s going to be deadlines hitting at you from left, right and center. And then studying was much more easier compared to going to get a job. But yeah, I would say when you go into a job, it’s much more different. You get to realize what more aspects are there.

04:44 David: So, Sam, you were saying that it’s a lot more different from a working perspective as compared to being a student. And I think part of that is to do with the fact that you are saying there’s a lot more deadlines, a lot more pressure, a lot of projects coming to you from different places.

But also, I suppose one of the key differences is that when you’re a student, you’re working towards like an assignment or an exam and it’s a set time and there’s not a lot of pressure other than the fact that you’re delivering to that. Whereas in a work situation, as you were saying, there’s a lot of different things happening at one time.

And I suppose part of the Professional  Year Program that you did includes an internship. Obviously you did that with us here, and then you got a job from it. In terms of that transition or that internship helping you with the transition, how do you think that actually helped with making it a bit easier for you, the fact that you had an internship first?

05:29 Sam: The internship was a godsend to me. Once I got into the interview and the internship, my colleagues were hands on, helping me around with whatever problems I’ve been encountering. And my mentors were really helpful. Even the whole team, the whole team was helpful. They would only give me works. My whole team would allocate me work depending upon my proficiency, so I would not be getting the hardest job on the first day.

It was like an incremental buildup, so it would really build my character and then my knowledge base as well. So it was not just diving on the first day, but it was a slow, gradual process. And that really helped me in the transition because later on when I came back and started working for Gradability, it was those moments that helped me transition much more easier into life right now.

06:12 David: I think it’s a really good point. And probably it’s a sign of a good internship where you’re actually coming in and you’re not being thrown in the deep end. And I think we’ve talked about this, or I’ve talked about this on previous episodes.

It’s the responsibility of a host, of a mentor to make sure that the person coming in is given the right levels of support, is given the right ability to learn in their role. It’s not about coming in, and everyone knows that as an intern, you’re not coming in with a whole lot of experience.

As a host employer, you’ve got to make sure you’re providing the right environment for them, giving the individual, like yourself, in that situation, a chance to then learn, grow, and then ideally, what we want is for that person to then demonstrate the ability to perform the role as clearly you’ve done, to be able to then ideally secure a role, which is what you’ve done.

06:56 So I think what you’ve touched on is probably the ideal kind of internship scenario where you’re getting support, but are also given enough tasks that you’re challenged and you’re constantly being pushed. But your internship when you started, was that face to face or did you start off remotely or was there a component of both?

07:11 Sam: There was a component of both and for the first two weeks it was mostly remote. And that was the time when I really had the opportunity to grow my knowledge base because I had it in my mindset when I started working, there would be work coming along my way.

So, in order to do them and tackle them on a daily basis, I should be getting my knowledge base up. So, those first two weeks of remote learning really helped me. Remote internship, it really helped me to expand my knowledge base. So, once I started on the third week, it was pretty much easy as in transitioning into the work.

07:44 David: You talk about growing your knowledge base. Did you have to do any additional learning or did you have to do any research to prepare for it? Or was it just stuff that you already knew and you just had to refresh on?

07:53 Sam: It was basically more like half of the knowledge-base stuff are already taught during your PY classes, so they will give you a blueprint on how you’re going to tackle the daily problems and your challenges that come along your way. So, other than that, your mentor is going to help you.

My mentor also really helped me to transition into work. The most important part that I realized while going through my internship was half of the stuff that you are going through, if you just take a step back and look into it, those problems and challenges would really fit into those structures and blueprints that were taught to you during your PY classes.

08:31 So, it was just a matter of calming yourself down and looking back and realizing what steps you have to take forward and then go accordingly. So it was a fun experience.

08:41 David: It’s really interesting because a lot of people I know when they’re considering the PY program, they look at it and they think it’s part of the skilled migration program under the skill select model. And so a lot of people look at it and just go, “It’s five points.” What I’m hearing you saying is that the tools or the learnings you get from that program are a lot more than that and they actually help really prepare you for working in Australia and helping you sort of make that transition.

Clearly you’ve talked about before the fact that you’ve got a bachelors from Nepal and then you come to Australia, you’ve done a Master, so you’re not underqualified, if anything, you’re overqualified.

But even with that, with the technical knowledge you had, you still had to learn the processes, workflows that you had to get through so that when you got into that work environment, whether it’s an internship or in your current job, you’re actually using the skills that you learned from your PY program, which you didn’t necessarily have before.

09:25 Sam: No, this is just a message out to all the audience. If you are getting yourself into PY just for the five points, you’re going to get more out of the PY just than the five points. It’s a combination of everything that you would be needing in your life after you graduate because that’s going to really prepare you for that professional career that you are after and that is going to hit you right after you graduate.

So, it is really a sweet spot to get yourself into. Once you finish your Master’s, undergrad, whatever you’re doing over here, just get yourself into a PY course and then it’s gonna like really help you go forward with your career. That’s what I’d say.

10:01 David: I think it’s a really good point. I mean, I graduated from university 30 years ago as an international student, right? I went to university in Perth at UWA, and when I graduated, there was no Professional Year Program. There was no opportunity for me to sort of learn what I needed to learn in order to transition into a workplace.

And I took the long route. I was unemployed for twelve months, I was looking for a job. I was door knocking on all the agencies that I could find in WA or in Perth at the time. And what I found really difficult was that even when I did get my foot in, somebody who pretty much fit entirely into Australian culture, but the work culture was very different.

10:35 The work culture, the business environment was actually very different to what I had experienced previously in Singapore, just where I’m from. And the PY program, if it was around then when I said this, it would have been such an important tool because the way it helps demystify what the Australian working environment is like, what the business culture is.

There’s obviously things you learn from a communication perspective, business communication perspective. But just understanding the culture is very different. And, you know, you’re from Nepal, I’m from Singapore. A lot of our students come from India in the subcontinent or China, etc. Culturally they’re very different places to Australia.

So things like as simple as challenging your boss in a meeting or you’re raising an issue, I don’t agree with you, Mr. Manager. That’s not necessarily something you do in an Asian culture, where here it’s almost expected.

11:19 Sam: Obviously.

11:19 David: And those are the sort of things that you picked up as well, learned in that program?

11:21 Sam: Yes. I remember one scenario during our PY class that just like, came up. In that scenario, we had to pretend that were part of the executive members and one of our teammates from the group was going to present on the topics like, whatever the team member was going to show up, you had to like, give them a constructive feedback.

So that was like a way of teaching you into the Australian work culture. You should be questioning everything that doesn’t sit well with you. Everyone has a different perspective and then it just teaches you a way to voice your concerns so that when you go and find that in your professional work, you won’t be shocked at that moment because it’s preparing you from the bottom way up.

12:02 David: Yeah, which is interesting because you get, certainly from my experience, I find a lot of Australians that graduate from universities and come work for us, a lot of them don’t have those skills.

12:08 Sam: No.

12:09 David: They don’t necessarily have the ability to provide feedback in a constructive way that isn’t confrontational. And that’s one of the big things about this program. It’s teaching you the life skills, as you said before, which I think are really important.

So you’ve obviously done your internship, or part of your internship was done online and then part of it was obviously done face to face was one easier or harder than the other?

12:28 Sam: I believe doing an internship in the office is much more easier on the intern rather than doing it online, because once you’re doing it remote, this has happened to me as well, because once you get stuck into a problem, some people, they just don’t want to come out and ask for help.

They want to go and look into it. So it just blocks you, just kind of like a barrier that gets created. So it’s better that you get the internships done in the office so that even if you are stuck, your mentors can just have a look at you and then you realize, “Oh, this guy is getting stuck somewhere, this guy is getting stuck somewhere…” So they just come and hop in and they help you. I think getting an internship at the office is a lot better.

13:07 David: So you’re talking about the kind of informal support that a mentor can give you. So you’re sitting next to somebody and they can see this guy struggling might help them out, right?

13:16 Sam: Yeah.

13:18 David: But in your situation, I’m guessing that when you were at home doing your own stuff and you got stuck, you were asking, getting in touch with your mentor to ask?

13:24 Sam: I was, but it wouldn’t be as upfront because I would want to do some research and then again, get back to my mentor as well. But in saying that, having been working with your mentor face-to-face and then the time frame from working from home, it just makes a little bit of difference.

13:39 David: A 100%. It’s one of those interesting things. I think we’ve talked for the last two years or two and a half, actually almost three years now, about working remotely. People in general are saying, oh, some people say, I don’t want to go back to the office because I can perform my role at home.

But I think what you’re saying is really important from an employer’s perspective, but also from a team member’s perspective, that yes, remotely, a lot of roles can be performed at home in isolation and you can get things done. The emergence of things like Zoom and Teams and WebEx and those sort of platforms have made it really easy for businesses to be able to continue to work and continue to collaborate.

14:14 But one of the big differences is a big challenge with that is you actually lose out on exactly what you’re talking about, Sam, which is that informal contact that you’re sitting next to, somebody observing that a person is having some challenges and being able to say, oh, hang on, what’s going on, Sam? Do you need any help? Can I help you out? Do you understand this?

And also vice versa for the junior person to be able to go to their manager and say informally, “I’m having a bit of trouble, help me out with this…” as compared to saying, “Can I send you a zoom invite for 30 minutes, on Thursday?”

Which I think is interesting, as a society in general, we’ve become so used to that sort of Zoom tech, that online video conferencing technology that almost everything has to be a web meeting, when it’s so much easier to actually collaborate in person. Since we’ve been back, I’ve seen you sitting with your managers, and that sort of the flow that you get from having that opportunity to communicate. It’s a lot easier.

14:59 Sam: Yeah, it’s a game changer.

15:02 David: Now, when you initially finished your internship, there wasn’t actually a job for you, so how long was it between the time you finished and when you actually got a job, do you know?

15:09 Sam: So once I finished, it was during my, say, graduation day at PE. Once I finished everything for my PY and came here for my graduation day, I had a chance to reunite, talk with my mentors as well. And then, like, they said, a position was going to be available because they were not sure as well, because they just told me a position would be available. Are you interested? And I was like, first up, yeah, please.

15:33 David: Which is a really good new story, something that we like to hear about. Clearly, this is probably a classic example for us where there wasn’t necessarily a role at the time. There were some changes to the situation, and then opportunity came about.

And you obviously, as the person who was here, as the intern at the time, you obviously made enough of an impression, or enough positive impression to make sure that the hiring managers were going, “We need to get somebody and we think Sam is the right person for us.”

15:59 Can you just tell us, in terms of your attitude towards the internship, how did you approach that? What did you do to make sure that when these guys were saying, I need to bring somebody in for a role, they were going to think of you first?

16:09 Sam: So there was one particular mentality that I had in mind when I started my internship since the first day, I never thought of it as an internship. I thought of it as a job that I had recently landed, and I’m on a probation, so that I need to perform. So, that really was the mentality that I got into it.

And then once you go and tackle the job with that mentality, saying, like, this is not an internship, this is a job that you are going to get into it. It’s all in your mind how you want to perceive it, but it’s better that you perceive it in a way that you’re going to get this job after you finish your internship.

Just don’t regard the internship as an internship, take it as a learning opportunity, as a job that you have been given for, like, three months, four months, whatever the time frame is. So that will really help you and give your best at the job as well.

17:00 David: I think that’s a really smart attitude to have. I think genuinely it’s part of the journey, the internship. But I think that if you approach it from the point of view of, look, this is a job, if you approach it from that perspective and go, this is a job, and I’ve got to approach it, give it the respect that it deserves, then you’re naturally going to perform better than if you’re just going, “Oh it’s an internship, I’ll just turn up, I’m just going to sit here.”

And I think in your case, the key thing here for anyone, for all our listeners, is that doesn’t guarantee that you’ll get a job from it, but it certainly goes a long way in helping you get to that sort of situation.

If I look at, like in my background, which is similar to a point, is back in the day, I got my first start by volunteering. So I was a volunteer for the Perth International Arts Festival, which was then sponsored by the University of WA. I was working in the marketing department. I had never done anything marketing in my life.

I no idea what it was about, but I worked in there for three months and I treated it as if it was a job. I wasn’t even given an allowance or anything, which I think volunteers were meant to get in those days. We got tickets to a couple of the events, which is great, but I went in with the attitude of, look, I’m going to do everything I can to make sure that I’m putting myself forward.

18:05 I’m making sure that if there is an opportunity and it was very likely that there wasn’t going to be an opportunity for me, because the way these festivals work is the staff, they resource up for the event, after the event, they go back down to a skeleton staff.

So I was pretty sure I wasn’t going to get a job, but I kind of was hoping. But at the same time, I used that opportunity to network around the university or network through the board, various other channels to try and get myself ahead. But networking is great and it’s really important to be able to try and build those connections.

But at the end of the day, if I did a really crap job, if I just turned up and just sat at the desk and because I’m a volunteer, not paying me, I don’t really care, I could have met all the important people, but no one would have actually recommended me because I would have done a poor job.

18:42 And I think what you’re saying is that if you approach it from the point of view of I’m an intern, but I’m going to approach it like it’s my job and tackle it that way, then you give yourself the best opportunity to do it. And I think the other thing you said, and it’s advice I give to everybody, anybody who works for us, when they say, “How do I tackle this situation, what should I do in this particular scenario or otherwise?”

I always use this one piece of advice, is treat it like it’s your own business. What would you do if it was your own business? Somebody said this to me, told me this when I was ten years old. If you treat it like it’s your own business, you will very seldom make the wrong mistake. You see it time and time again. People who actively, like yourself, you’re  treating it like it’s your own business. You’re treating it like it’s a real opportunity. You’re going to end up performing a lot better as well.

You’re an international student, you’ve come from Nepal. One of the biggest challenges that we face, or the international students face, is that sort of language challenge. And on this podcast, we often talk about the fact that we are tackling the real issues and the hard truth.

19:38 So I want touch on this because a lot of the time this comes up that international students come to Australia and whether you’re from Nepal or India or wherever, we because, except I was one, we tend to hang out and mingle with our own, mix with our own people, from our own cultures and backgrounds.

A lot of times we will do that in our own languages, which makes it quite challenging when you then transition into working in Australia, where it’s obviously an English-speaking environment with its business sort of culture the way it is, how did you tackle that challenge?

20:04 Sam: This goes a long back because were taught in an English Medium School. We graduated from an English Medium University. So everything that I learned personally, for me, it has been in an English Medium. And my parents, they also used to push me to speak English in my head from the start.

But once I came to Australia, that was different, because in the first few months, I just knew a few people from my community, from my people. When I went to hang out with them, they would always speak in Nepali. The thing that struck me was I should be hanging out more with people who speak English and who will teach me more about the culture of the country that I just came in, rather than just being with my own community.

20:44 Because, if I wanted that knowledge, I could have stayed back in my own country. And then the other funny part that happened was when I got my first casual job in Australia, I went on to secure a job with Middle Eastern people so they would never speak English with their own community.

So, that just gave me another perspective of how these people could be set back by the fact that they’re not speaking English and interacting with the other culture. So I just had to, like, speak up, expand my knowledge, and then I went forward with that.

21:12 David: Yeah. And it’s a balancing act because obviously you’re saying you come into a different country, the only people you know are people from your own community, and so it’s natural to want to hang out with them, because there’s a comfort factor to that.

I mean, it’s a completely different country and so you can understand why that happens. But I think what you’re saying is that you have to almost put yourself out of that. You pull yourself out of that comfort zone, not necessarily all the time, but you need to get out and test yourself.

21:39 One of our previous guests from RMIT, Nigel Atkinson, was saying that you might be from a different culture, different background, but it’s important to make sure that if you do want to live and work in Australia, ultimately, at some point you’re going to have to function within that structure.

The sooner you can get out of that, the sort of better. You talked about casual jobs just quickly, how many casual jobs have you had, loosely?

21:57 Sam: Say three, four. I had, like, a total of four casual jobs before I landed permanently with Gradability.

22:06 David: And what skills did you learn from those jobs that you can transfer now to where you work and what you’re doing?

22:11 Sam: The number one quality would be like, I am much more confident because I can deal with so many people and I’ve dealt with so many people from all different backgrounds. So right now, when something comes up, I’m just calm and confident while dealing with that matter.

And then there’s another habit of, say, working independently, because casual jobs, like, there’s no one to guide you, so you just have to learn it on the spot and then perform at your best so that they call you back again, because that’s the reality of casual jobs. So, yeah, those are the main two skills that I would name.

22:43 David: And I think they can’t be understated, right? Because calmness under pressure, the ability to cope under pressure that goes across any industry. And particularly, I think if you’re working in the service sector, you’re going to deal with different hours, different times of the day, different days of the week are going to come in different states of wear and tear and they have issues that you have to manage, right?

Which is very different to a professional sort of working environment. So if you can work under that sort of pressure. And that could be a McDonald’s, it could be driving an Uber, it could be stacking shelves at Coles. You’re going to meet people, different environments, different levels of stress, wants and desires. You’re going to have to manage through that.

And if you can communicate effectively in that environment, if you can remain calm while people are losing their temper and wanting their chips urgently, it stands you in a really good stead. And I think the other thing you talked about is obviously working independently.

23:26 The ability to think for yourself and to get stuff done on your own, I think is really important because it’s a trait that, as you’re finding out now, whether you’re working remotely or whether you’re working in the office in a face-to-face environment or a blended version of it, you have to work independently. You can’t always be relying on, what do I do here? What do I do here? Or you wouldn’t be in this job.

23:46 Sam: No.

23:45 David: Tell me, you obviously completed the Professional Year with us and you spoke very highly of it and before, why would you recommend the PY program to anyone who’s listening in?

23:55 Sam: The number one point that I would like to highlight is you will gain so much knowledge, it will expand your knowledge base. Once you graduate out of your uni or college, you’re going to be thinking like, “Oh, yeah, it’s going to be same like back home over here, like, I’m going to get a job, I’m going to land a job.” But until you start applying and seeing those rejection emails, you’ll never know how hard is it to land a job.

And then PY will really incorporate that culture. And there’s a lot of things that PY will incorporate into your mindset so that you can carry that and approach every job as they should be approached. Just the mindset changes. Once you finish your PY course, you’re going to be thanking yourself that you did the PY.

24:39 David: It’s good. Rejection letters are not fun.

24:38 Sam: No, they never are.

24:41 David: I had 200 of them in my time, which is a lot of yeah. That’s a lot of rejection.

24:46 Sam: Yeah, that’s a lot of it.

24:47 David: Just finally, before we wrap up, Sam, have you got any advice for a graduate who has just finished or about to finish their course and wanting to start their career? What advice do you have for them in terms of how to secure your first job?

24:59 Sam: The first key thing would be to, like, never be disappointed by seeing rejection emails because there’s bound to be lots coming your way and network very, very good because once you know people, you can know about what positions are opening because the industry is, like, so small.

You get referred to another position by the same mentor or your teacher or your friends. It’s very good that you network with the good people and never lose hope. Like, just go for it. You need to be applying, say, like, 50, 60 jobs a day. Like, whatever you see over there, you need to apply for those jobs.

Even if they reject you, you’re going to learn something and take it onto the next application. So it’s going to really change your mindset.

25:42 David: And I think that message you just put in there about not letting yourself get downhearted by rejection is a really important one, and I think it’s a really important one, not just in terms of applying for roles. But even beyond that, in your professional career, there’s going to be times when you’re asking for, it could be a promotion, there could be times you’re asking for a particular project, and you’re going to be told, “Look, we can’t give that to you or we’re not able to take on this new project because of whatever reason…”

Being able to cope with that rejection, again, we talked about the word resilience before and it gets thrown around a lot, but I think it’s a really important part of what we do and making sure that we are resilient enough to overcome that.

26:15 But I think the key part of that is and you touched on it as well is making sure that you’re learning from it as well, that you’re not just, “Oh, I got rejected, okay, I won’t get too upset by it.” You also learn why. And in one of our previous episodes, we talked about making sure you’re following up.

So if you are getting a rejection, go to an interview and you don’t get that role. You do want to follow up to make sure that you’re asking, why did I not get this role? Not aggressively, but, “Help me understand, anything I can work on?” And then use that to help bridge that gap between where you currently are versus where you want to get to, which I think is really important. Sam, look, it’s been a really good chat with you.

26:46 Sam: Likewise.

26:46 David: I’m glad that you’re on board on our team, really glad to have you on the team.

26:51 Sam: Thank you.

26:51 David: And I’m looking forward to more ongoing contributions from you. Thanks a lot for the chat. Really appreciate it. And thank you, everyone, for listening in.

26:58 Sam: Thanks, David, thank you for the opportunity.

27:04 David: You have been listening to the Employability podcast presented by Gradability. If you would like more information about today’s topics, please check out the show notes or visit www.gradibility.com.au.

A reminder to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss an episode. I’m Dave Phua. Until next time, remember to control the controllables.