Pathways to Permanent Residency in Australia


The Jobs + Skills Summit

that took place in September 2022 in Australia has certainly shaken up the education and migration sectors as the Australian government looks to address the skills gaps across industries and drive upskilling of Australians entering employment.

From an international student and migration perspective,

there’s more good news with an increase to the Permanent Migration Program planning level quota to 195,000, along with a doubling of the Temporary Graduate visa (subclass 485) for graduates to 4 years (more for postgraduates).

On this episode of The Employability Podcast, Gradability’s CEO David Phua talks with Peter Michalopoulos, Director of Ethos Migration Lawyers, about what these changes mean in reality and simple terms.

Find out:

  • Key takeaways from the 2022 Jobs & Skills Summit with regards to skilled migration into Australia
  • Why it’s even more important now for international students to gain work experience in their chosen field
  • How to make the most of your time and pave your path to Permanent Residency in Australia


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Tune in again next week, for the final episode of season 1 of The Employability Podcast, brought to you by Gradability.


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Here is the full transcript of this episode

00:00 Dave: You’re listening to the Employability podcast where graduation meets employment. During this series, we uncover the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of being more employable and ultimately getting hired.

Hard truths. No bullshit, no filters, just the information you really need to hear, presented by Gradability. Today, we’re joined by Peter Michalopoulos, Director of Ethos Migration Lawyers. Peter and I discussed the changes as a result of the Jobs and Skills Summit and why it’s even more important now for international students to gain experience working in their field. I hope you enjoy the show.

Peter, thanks for coming in today. Just to kick things off, I’d love to get your insights on the recent Jobs and Skills Summit that was held particularly from a migration perspective and specifically around skilled migration and what that means for potential skilled migrants coming in.

01:00 Peter: Excellent. Thanks for having me on the show, Dave. So, migration was a very hot topic at the Jobs and Skills Summit and for once, we saw unions, employers, civil societies and governments come together and all agree that migration will be a key contributor to ensuring Australia is able to recover economically post the COVID-19 pandemic.

Some of the most important takeaways that I saw was essentially the government immediately lifted the annual permanent migration intake from a 160,000 places to 195,000. So, that is allowing a huge number of invitations, which we’ll talk about shortly to be issued.

01:37 The second item that was important was the plan to move away from temporary migration to permanent migration, with a likely change that occupations on the short-term list will start having pathways to permanent residency.

Additionally, international students will be granted longer temporary graduate subclass 485 visas. Students who have completed a bachelor degree in Australia, will receive a four-year visa. For select Master’s degrees, that will be a five-year visa and an increase to six years for select PhD students.

Another likely change is the TSMIT increase. So, the Temporary Skilled Migration Income Threshold will likely be increased from 53,900 to potentially somewhere in the 60s. This will mean employers wishing to sponsor someone for a visa data will need to offer a salary of around 60,000 plus super. However, that number is still yet to be determined.

02:21 Finally, a commitment from the government to increase visa processing times. The government has pledged to invest 36,1 million into visa processing resources which will add an additional 500 staff in visa processing and clear the backlog of existing visa applications and streamline new applications, which is something that we’re all looking forward to.

02:39 Dave: It’s a lot of information in there and I think from sort of my perspective, certainly with the sort of clients that we have and the customers that we have in our business when we look at it, the fact that they’re planning to have more permanent migration is a real positive.

And I think also the fact that extending post-study visas is a real positive as well. What we have seen though, is that even though they have over the last couple of years while they’ve had quotas, they haven’t actually used any of them in terms of permanent residency. Do you see that as being something that will actually change?


03:07 Peter: Absolutely, yes. We’ve actually seen it already occur and I’m going to touch on that in a little bit more detail in a moment. But it’s quite refreshing to see that those quotas are starting to be used because it’s one thing to say that we’ve got 160,000 places and we’re increasing it to 195,000 places, but if they’re not extending the invitation to anyone, they’re just simply numbers.

03:28 Dave: Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things that we’ve heard from our customers is that there isn’t a pathway. So, the fact that they’re opening that I think is really good. I think the fact that they’ve increased the volume is also really strong.

But I think also the fact that they’ve extended the post-study visa, there’s two sides to that, and I think there’s a positive and there’s negative or less positive. But I think the positive thing is that it’s showing that they have a commitment, I suppose, or promise of a commitment to international students that we do want them to stick around a bit longer, which is that can’t be anything other than positive.

03:54 Peter: Absolutely. And I think that is trying to make up a bit of that sour taste in people’s mouths, especially international students that were here throughout the pandemic. And many students were left in in quite difficult situations.

So, I think that the government, and especially now the new government, is really trying to restore that faith in Australia as a destination.

04:14 Dave: Not a moment too soon as some would say.

04:14 Peter: Absolutely.

04:15 Dave: So, just in terms of trends, I suppose over the last year, since borders have been open, what sort of trends are you seeing just from a migration perspective broadly?

04:24 Peter: Yes. So, this touches on what you just mentioned earlier. So, although it’s still very early days, the most surprising trend, and this caught our firm by surprise, we’re all in the office one day and then we just started getting invitations coming through.

Invitation for 189, invitation for 190, invitations for 491… So, invitations are now starting to be issued. So, that is something that I believe is going to continue and there is going to be a targeted approach for general skilled migration over the next few years.

04:51 And this is important because it’s going to address those significant labor shortages that are being faced in Australia. It’s now more important than ever for international students in Australia to get the work experience they need to get their skills assessments and be competitive to receive an invitation for a general skilled migration visa, which we can start talking about shortly.

05:08 Dave: And just for our listeners who aren’t familiar with the visa numbers, when you talk about 189, 190 and 491, what are those referred to?

05:15 Peter: Yes. So, 189 is the skilled independent visa. So, essentially this is a visa that you don’t need to be sponsored by an employer or nominated by a state or territory of Australia. It’s based on the skills that Australia needs and pretty much a points test.

So, essentially, based on age, English, level of experience, whether you’ve completed a professional year or not, there’s sort of candidates then assessed in that manner and then invitations are being extended to apply for permanent residency.

05:42 Dave: Yeah. So, that’s your traditional Skill Select model.

05:45 Peter: Correct.

05:46 Dave: And then the 190 is state-nominated?


05:47 Peter: Yes, so it still works through Skill Select because that’s the main platform that’s used to manage the whole general skilled migration program. So, the 190 is state sponsored or state or territory sponsored, when I say the word sponsored or nominated, those terms are used interchangeably.

But essentially what that means is that each year in those allocations that we said that they’re being increased, each state and territory of Australia are issued a certain number of allocations where they can then nominate individuals to apply for permanent residency, which is sponsored by their particular state or territory. And that’s for the 190 visa and 491, which is the regional counterpart.

06:22 Dave: Okay. You talked about your sense, I suppose, that there’s going to be a pretty strong push for GSM or general skilled migration over the next few years.

And I’ve touched on before, we’ve had obviously the pathways theoretically have stayed open the last couple of years, but no one other than the sort of key areas of healthcare and nursing areas generally, the healthcare sort of areas have been the ones that seem to be getting a lot of the offers.

06:43 You’re sensing, or you’re seeing that already that’s starting to shift in terms of other occupations, ICT or IT, and accounting are two of the ones that we work with, engineering, you’re starting to see that shift.

06:52 Peter: Absolutely. So, we’ve seen invitations being issued for a whole range of occupations. Now, I believe, although there’s not any data to quantify at this stage, the Department of Immigration for the 189 visa are focusing on particular areas.

But from a state-sponsored perspective and even a little bit from the 189, it’s not limited to just nurses and doctors that they were focusing on during the height of the pandemic. And we have seen occupations in the trades, for example, T-engineering, that have been invited. So, it’s definitely not as limited as it once was.

07:24 Dave: That’s really positive. Now, most of the people listening to this international students or graduates overseas born, if you were an international student or yourself, and you’re looking to continue living and working in Australia post-graduation, what are the things that you’d be looking to do to help enable that?

07:40 Peter: Yeah, so the first thing I’d be doing is and I’d be doing this while I’m still studying to get sort of head start on this, because a lot of students leave this a little bit late, look into the requirements and go, “Oh, no, it’s a little late.”

Yeah. So, I would be looking at the requirements to get a positive migration skills assessment in your occupation and do whatever it takes to get that. So, given the increase in the skilled migration intake and the major skill shortages that are being faced in Australia, that trend that we’re seeing of invitations being issued are likely to continue.

08:07 So, it’s really important that you look at the skills assessment criteria and do whatever it takes to be able to get that, because that is essentially one of the most important factors to being able to apply for a general skilled migration visa, because the skills assessment is required for each of those visas.

08:22 Dave: Just on that, one of the things we touched on separately was you were saying a lot of people that are applying, they’re waiting until after they graduate to do that, whereas, you’re suggesting that they need to start looking at this beforehand?

08:31 Peter: Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m not talking about applying for the skills assessment, but it’s always great when I see clients come in and they’re in their last year of study and they’re saying, “Okay, I need to start organizing my pathway for permanent residency, what do I need to do?”

So, then they can start looking at the individual skill assessment authority requirements, which may say you need 45 days of industry placement experience in addition to one year of experience in the occupation itself.

08:55 And then they can start planning and doing whatever they need to do from the early stages to put themselves in the best position later.

09:03 Dave: Yeah, because it’s one of the things that we see as well with a lot of the people we come across, they wait till the absolute last minute and then they come to us and they say, “Well, actually I’m looking for a professional year, I’m looking for some help in getting my first job, those sort of things…”

And you go, well, actually, it’s a bit late now. And I think what you’re saying is absolutely valid. You need to start looking at these things while you’re still studying, understand what the landscape is, understand what you need to do.

09:23 And rather than just sort of jump at shadows and go, “Well, that state looks attractive, I’ll go over there…” And just jump through that hoop. What is the best option for me? Yes, there’s some attractiveness or there is some attractiveness with interstate migration, but at the same time, if I was starting out my career right now, where are my roots?

Where do I actually have the networks? Where have I got established contacts? Rather than just looking to jump that sort of hoop, I think what you say really valid.

09:45 Peter: You’re completely right in that regard. It’s going to be a little bit better now, given that they’re going to be extending the amount of time of the temporary graduate 485 visa, but I can’t tell you how many times a student, a visa holder has completed their course.

They’ve got six months left on their 485, and they’re saying I want to apply for PR. It’s just simply too late.

10:03 Dave: Yep. And then you’re touching on experience as well?

10:05 Peter: Yeah, definitely. So, most skill assessing authorities will require you to have some level of experience in your occupation to be eligible for a migration skills assessment.

So, in any case, though, gaining experience in your occupation is extremely valuable because if you wanted to look down the employer sponsored pathway as a backup for you, they need experience as well.

So, it gives you the options to be considered for the 189, 190 and 491 visa, but it also gives you that plan B, or that option at least, to be sponsored by an employer until you’re able to secure your own permanent residency, whether it be through that employer that you’re sponsored by or independently through the 189 or a state sponsored visa.

10:43 Dave: And I suppose one of the other opportunities that’s come out of the Jobs and Skills Summit is the fact that student visas or on a student visa now there isn’t that work restriction where it used to be 20 hours per week. Or 40 hours per fortnight, there isn’t that now.

I’m not necessarily a huge fan of it from the sense of some people look at that and go, “Great, I can get a student visa and I can just go and work fulltime 80 hours a week, ridiculous hours on a casual job or something of that sort…”

11:06 I think the opportunity is presented for exactly that cohort what you’re talking about, you’re trying to start your professional career, let’s call it in IT, you can get a job part time in that field, work that, use that as actual work experience, A, to buffer up your skills.


11:19 Peter: Get your foot in the door.

11:20 Dave: Get your foot in the door and also it’s valuable experience that you’re going to need when you move forward. So, I think that’s probably one of the advantages of having them remove the work restrictions.

It’s obviously open for abuse as anything is, but hopefully it’s one where people see the opportunities in terms of career setting rather than just short term jobs.

11:37 Peter: Yeah, well, that’s right. So, just to touch on that now there Dave, the government has announced that that unlimited work rights is going to be reverting back in the new year. I believe it’s 30th April next year, students will be required to go back to those 20 hours per week.

So, it was designed as a temporary relief measure during the pandemic. So, again, it’s important that international student visa holders aren’t too comfortable on that because it is changing.

12:03 Dave: Absolutely. Now, we’re obviously a provider of the professional year program and we’ve seen different enrollments where people, there’s a sense of disillusionment to a certain extent around that Skill Select model and around the things that we’ve talked about, where they’re not seeing those migration outcomes.

And at the end of the day, that is a very real goal for a lot of people. And so they’re taking their IT degrees, their accounting degrees in various qualifications and saying, look, I’m just going to throw it into doing a mono-mechanics course or some other trade.

12:31 Do you think that that’s a viable opportunity for them? Or do you think that PY itself still has validity and in terms of the dream, when you’re sitting in your home country and you’re looking at, “Okay, I’m going to be an accountant, I’m going to be a developer, to give that up and go, well, I’m just going to chase the easiest path now…” What are your sort of thoughts on that?

12:45 Peter: So, Dave, you’re right in what you’re saying. There has been that disillusionment in the Skill Select model and students have been in Australia, studying and they just don’t feel that this pathway is going to provide them a permanent residency pathway.

However, the important thing to note is that just in August, the department’s recent data was released, they issued 13,000 invitations. So, there is light at the end of the tunnel. The Skill Select model will be picking up again. And those students that previously thought that there wasn’t a chance, I would strongly encourage them to review their position and see what options are available to them.

13:18 So, another important consideration is as the invitations continue to increase, so will demand. So, it’s now more important than ever that you need to look at ways you can have a competitive advantage over your peers that you’re competing with. The PY is a fantastic way to do that. It can give you that additional five points that gives you the edge that you may need.

So, a lot of people say, you know, it’s only five points, but it’s only five points is important because not everyone can get that little bit of an edge over their peers. And in any case, the PY is a great tool to gain valuable industry experience, which increases your point score, increases your opportunity to secure a job, and then it will give you many benefits because you can look at employer-sponsored visas, general skilled migration, and it’ll put your foot in the door.

13:56 Dave: Yeah, I mean, we always talk about the PY being more than just five points. And the point or the fact of the matter is, as you’re saying, it could just be five points in inverted commas, but if you approach it the right way, you go to the right provider, and you get the right opportunities, then really it’s about going, how do I leverage that to get the experience that I need to get an internship?

Can I get a job from that? How do I broaden my options? Which is a message I think we put out really strongly to our students that, yes, you can just go through the motions. You can just undertake the program, but ultimately, you’ve just come from three or four years of undergraduate work, where you’ve put in that work there, you’ve now got an opportunity to leverage that in order to start your professional career in that nominated field of yours, rather than just sort of go through that motion.

14:35 And I think it’s really important that people understand that what has happened over the last couple of years, as you’re saying, is shifted now where you are seeing opportunities come up. You are seeing people have ability to then gain invitations to be accepted.

So, it’s no longer just a case of just go to the easiest path of least resistance. You’re actually now looking at, how can I use this? How can I leverage this to get ahead?

14:57 Peter: Well, that’s right, because it does talk a lot to the point I mentioned earlier about the migration skills assessment. So, for example, an IT PY, an ICT  professional year, Australian computer society, which is a skill assessing authority, will acknowledge the PY program and give you your skills assessment.

It’s not wise to think of it as just paying X amount of dollars to get five points. It’s getting your foot in the door. You’re getting your skills assessment, and you’re getting those five points.

15:22 Dave: Yeah, well, the opportunity to get those five points.

15:24 Peter: The opportunity, of course, of course. What you need to do with it, that’s right.

15:28 Dave: We’ve just sort of laboured the point a little bit. We’ve talked about people spending of 100 grand on it, on a qualification and then they pivot away from it because they don’t see potentially that opportunity. And you’re seeing that definitely changing.

Just to, again, I know we’re labouring the point a little bit, but you are seeing that that is changing?

15:43 Peter: Definitely. So, for as long as I can remember, and I’ve been doing this job nearly nine years now, accounting has always been pretty difficult, it’s been competitive. However, as I mentioned before, there’s an uptake in invitations to further emphasize that point, what we saw at the Jobs and Skills Summit earlier and even prior to this, is that the various peak accounting professional bodies have been really vocal around the shortage of accountants in Australia.

We work with a number of accounting practices from small size, medium through to large scale practices. And each and every one of them have been talking about the significant need for accountants they have because a lot of them did rely on that cohort of international students who would graduate and then get their placements or internships, who would then transition into accountants and their practice.

16:25 Now, COVID really hampered that, so there is significant shortage of accountants. So, although I believe it will still remain competitive, it will be achievable for people.

16:36 Dave: Yeah, I 100% agree with you. We’ve got lots of our host employers that we’ve worked with over a number of years who have come to us and said, “Look, we need graduate talent, we’re looking for accountants – there’s none.”

And many of them are prepared to pay, in fact, we’re seeing in the market at the moment, people are paying top dollar for graduate entrance because of the fact that it’s such a tight market.

So, absolutely. I think from an accounting perspective, there are definitely opportunities and I think, as you’re saying, that demand will drive the points hopefully into a more manageable position.

17:00 Peter: That’s right. More realistic.

17:02 Dave: And ICT in IT has always been sort of in high demand and certainly the volumes from a quarter perspective are quite high as well.

17:09 Peter: Yeah, definitely. So, with the ICT sector, what I’ve noticed is, again, we work with lots of organizations who are in the IT field and there is a significant shortage. They’ve always been in demand and I think if you’re an ICT graduate, the point of difference is going to be your experience.

So, the best chance you can have for yourself is going back to our earlier point. While you’re finishing your course in Australia, whether it’s a bachelor or a master degree, start planning on how you can get your foot in the door to get that experience.

And there’s no reason and this is very general, there’s no reason, if you complete your course and start getting some experience, I think you are very likely to either be sponsored by an employer or be able to be eligible and be invited for a 189 or a 190 visa due to the demand that we’re seeing right now. And I believe this is just going to continue.

17:56 Dave: And I suppose just broadly, for anyone listening in broad sort of information sharing thing, I know a lot of us are looking at, okay, well, I’m looking for a migration outcome here and these are the pathways that can open up.

And Peter’s been quite clear in terms of leveraging those opportunities. I think it’s really important to know that if you do get an opportunity, it’s not just about waiting it out to get the PR offer.

18:14 You’re not going to give yourself the opportunity to get sponsored by an employer unless you’re actually performing your role well. So, it’s not just about securing that role and then just sitting there for a couple of years and waiting for something to happen.

You actually have to make sure that you are putting in, that you are contributing as an individual and you’re making sure that you are not just waiting for things to happen. It’s very much about performing in a role just like anything else.

18:33 Peter: Absolutely. Well, that’s life, isn’t it? The same principles of general life applied from a migration perspective is that you need to perform and you need to show your value to the organization and then hopefully that can open up some doors for you.

But it’s also important for your own development as well that you’re taking advantage of that opportunity and looking at, okay, if I perform in this role, I can look at employer sponsored options, but then I also have independent options as well as state sponsored pathways.

18:57 So, yeah, it’s definitely important that people are taking it serious and not wasting their time on the temporary graduate visa because that’s the key. That’s the pivot essentially, whether am I going to get PR, if I’m going to secure myself in Australia or are my options going to run out, and I’m going to have to depart.

19:11 Dave: Yeah. Even if you take PR off the table, we’re looking at it just from a post-study visa perspective. If you don’t get PR, there’s still the option of just working for three, four years, five, six years, depending on your qualification, and gaining a whole bunch of invaluable experience.

And not just experience here, but stuff that you can take home with you, if that’s the case, or you can build on and sort of move on here. I suppose, from an employer’s perspective, if we just look at that, if you’re looking to hire someone and they’re on a 485 visa, as an employer, should you be concerned or should you be…

19:43 Because there is still a sense, I think, with some employers, “They’re international students. I don’t know, they may not stick around, not sure how I’d deal with them…” What’s your broadly or general sort of advice around an employer looking at the international student market?

19:56 Peter: Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, there was traditionally a bit of hesitation around sponsoring someone on a visa because they’re thinking exactly what you said. How long is their visa for? Are they going to leave afterwards, what’s going to happen?

But as an employer, you should not be concerned about hiring an individual on a 485 visa for example, as long as you’re remaining on top of your compliance obligations. Now, for any business, I would be ensuring that as part of your monthly compliance, that you want to take in your organization, that you’re doing your work rights entitlement checks.

20:24 So, just ensuring that they do have the right to work in Australia. And going back to your point that you mentioned about international students, just looking to work in Australia, and perhaps they’re not interested in getting permanent residency.

That’s a very valid point, because a lot of our chat today has been around studying and getting towards permanent residency, which is what most people’s goals are. But there are that cohort of international students that are looking to complete their qualification in Australia, get some work experience in Australia and then go work in Hong Kong, Singapore, wherever it may be.

20:49 So, as an employer, I would be taking advantage of that, because these are young graduates who are keen, they’re ready to go, they want to achieve. As long as you’ve got your compliance side sort of managed appropriately, I wouldn’t let a visa status essentially deter you, because you could be missing out on some great talent.

21:05 Dave: Just from a compliance perspective, I think some, possibly, if you’re, a smaller employer, you may not necessarily know, I suppose, how to manage your compliance or how to make sure that a person has the work right.

How would you do that if you don’t actually know it? What would you say? What would you recommend in terms of how somebody can make sure that they are compliant?

21:23 Peter: Yeah, definitely I would be looking to reach out to an immigration provider that is experienced in this field. So, to give you an example, our firm undertakes ongoing compliance for a number of organizations.

So, what this enables us to do is we’ll maintain all records and undertake large scale periodical checks for work rights on a monthly basis and then provide that reporting to employers.

21:43 We also can identify any potential compliance issues that can be addressed before anything occurs with the department. And it’s also really helpful to monitor those visa expiries, work conditions, but also in identifying suitable candidates from their existing workforce who may be eligible for long-term sponsorship. And then that can increase retention in the business, which is sort of a positive.

22:02 Dave: And just, I suppose, in terms of that long-term sponsorship, what are the pathways, I suppose, that someone can take in terms of sponsoring somebody? I know there are some that lead to permanent residency. There’s some that are just ongoing.

22:14 Peter: Correct.

22:15 Dave: What’s the differences in them?

22:16 Peter: Yeah, so there’s two occupation lists generally speaking, when we’re talking about sponsorship and when we’re talking about sponsorship, we’re talking about the TSS402 visa.

So, traditionally, it was a short term list and long-term list. Short term gives you a visa for two years to renew for a further two years, and that’s the end of the road, a long-term list, so if your occupation is on the long-term list, you can be granted a visa for up to four years and then transition to permanent residency after completing three years with that employer.

22:42 However, the government, the new federal government, has come out and said that that model is not working. We’re just recycling people, essentially, with a two year visa. So, it’s extremely likely that that’s going to be scrapped and all sponsored workers will be able to transition to permanent residency.

22:54 Dave: Oh, really?

22:55 Peter: Yeah, it’s the Prime Minister himself came out and said that that model of two years plus two years and then going home, all that’s doing is just recycling people from around the world, in and out, and just sort of backlogging our visa system.

And again, if you’re, and this is a little bit outside of the international student market, but if you’re a high performing executive based in Germany, you’re not going to uproot your family and move to Australia for a two-year visa and a further two years and then go home.

23:22 Dave: Yeah, we faced that exact problem here, where we’ve had one of our execs who had to leave because he’d done this four years, there was no way of staying here. So, he had to leave and so we lost a really good person as a result of that.

23:31 Peter: It’s been a big problem and we have lost a lot of global talent through that framework, which is hopefully going to be addressed.


23:39 Dave: Hopefully it’s positive change.


23:42 Peter: But it’s government, we don’t know a 100% yet.

23:43 Dave: Positive eventual change.

23:45 Peter: Absolutely.


23:45 Dave: Look, just to give Ethos a bit of a plug, if any of our listeners were looking to get in touch with you for more advice, whether that’s as an individual or as a corporate, what’s the best way for them to get in touch with you?

23:55 Peter: Yeah, so the firm Ethos Migration Lawyers in this day and age uses our website, so feel free to head over to and get in touch with us that way. Alternatively, they can give our office a call on 1 300 083 843.

24:13 Dave: Awesome. And just before we wrap up, Peter, if you could pass on three bits of advice to any of our students or potentially international students looking to live and work in Australia, what would that be?

24:23 Peter: Yeah, great. So, obviously the first step is complete your course and apply for your temporary graduate visa. That is the most important bit. Then from there, do everything you can to start getting paid experience as soon as possible and do your best not to waste the valuable time that you have on your graduate visa.

Working part time during your studies is also very important as it can help get your foot in the door. Thirdly, complete the skills assessment, or at least review the skill assessing requirements. Get that skill assessment, work on your English, get the best English score you can get and carefully review the states and territories for state nomination. If you happen to get sponsored at some point during this process, that’s a bonus.

24:59 Dave: Awesome. That’s really good device. Peter, thanks very much for your time today. Really appreciate having some really good knowledge and information shared there. I’m sure our listeners will get some real value out of that. I really appreciate your time. Thanks very much.

25:12 Peter: Thanks for having me, Dave. Cheers.

25:17 Dave: You have been listening to the Employability podcast presented by Gradability. If you would like more information about today’s topics, please check out the show notes or visit

A reminder to subscribe to on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss an episode. I’m Dave Phua. Until next time, remember to control the controllables.


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